An internet pillory is what we have here any more. Jeebus what a nasty bunch.

You can tube the front end and rally the car. 1.5 or 1.75 .095 wall should be plenty. Lots of old Jags running around with 1 inch box I think?? From the firewall forward. Yes you can build your own cage also.

Now the real issues...without a cage in the car you have to be a bit more clever about your attachment at the firewall. You'd need to plate the firewall either way and I'd bolt the tube front end to the firewall myself. From the front of the struts forward needs to be a lighter material, either exhaust tubing or 1 inch .095 wall. You must have a crush zone of some sort, that is why we say the cage can't extend past the suspension mounts. Dirt is a big issue with rally and you'd have to (or should anyway) figure out a way to mitigate all the mud, gravel and crap that will spray in behind the tires. You also need to put the car on a frame machine now to verify the lack of damage behind the struts and then procede with any of the options.

Tubing the front from the strut towers forward isn't the worst idea. Tubing from the firewall isn't the best idea. It isn't a bunch stronger for our purposes nor lighter. Drilling and replacing the stock structure is quite easy. Without a totally square table to build on you may end up with a quirky handling car. Others have done it and a trip to the local road race track should give you the real world advice and tips you seek.

However I guess that if you're not buying one off parts from John for his madness recipes then you lose your right to be a person. Ignore Timm, good kid but no real background to decide what others can do.

Carry on with the beating....

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heymagic
An internet pillory is what we have here any more. Jeebus what a nasty bunch.

You can tube the front end and rally the car. 1.5 or 1.75 .095 wall should be plenty. Lots of old Jags running around with 1 inch box I think?? From the firewall forward. Yes you can build your own cage also.

Now the real issues...without a cage in the car you have to be a bit more clever about your attachment at the firewall. You'd need to plate the firewall either way and I'd bolt the tube front end to the firewall myself. From the front of the struts forward needs to be a lighter material, either exhaust tubing or 1 inch .095 wall. You must have a crush zone of some sort, that is why we say the cage can't extend past the suspension mounts. Dirt is a big issue with rally and you'd have to (or should anyway) figure out a way to mitigate all the mud, gravel and crap that will spray in behind the tires. You also need to put the car on a frame machine now to verify the lack of damage behind the struts and then procede with any of the options.

Tubing the front from the strut towers forward isn't the worst idea. Tubing from the firewall isn't the best idea. It isn't a bunch stronger for our purposes nor lighter. Drilling and replacing the stock structure is quite easy. Without a totally square table to build on you may end up with a quirky handling car. Others have done it and a trip to the local road race track should give you the real world advice and tips you seek.

However I guess that if you're not buying one off parts from John for his madness recipes then you lose your right to be a person. Ignore Timm, good kid but no real background to decide what others can do.

Carry on with the beating....

Thanks man, and now I'm confused. Who to believe? lol. And as for the frame machine, I've gone through and measured between the tires (all directions), from the strut towers in multiple directions, and compared them to my other car which is the same YMM (different sub model) and they are all within an 1/8 of an inch of each other (and that was the biggest variant and on the undamaged car too).

Legal for rally in USA since we pick and choose which parts of Fia safety rules we follow...

Caswell did some "unique" reinforcements on his Compact that he was frantically building with the hopes of doing WRC Mexico. I was really interested to see what the FIA inspectors would have said about his reinforcements.

It should not be legal in Rally America based on the way the rules are written I don't think. Then again, they let lots of things fly that wouldn't be accepted internationally while making some poor interpretations of others.

---

Grant Hughes



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/16/2013 10:09AM by NoCoast.

Unfortunately 1/8 inch can be alot when talking about front end geometry, esp where it is. Your Other car being tweeked is not suprising.

Do it if you want. Could be a fun project. It will be 3,4,5 times the work of just putting a junk yard front half on it, the junk yard front half you are going to have to buy anyway to get the hood, fenders, fender liners, radiator braces, headlights, headlight brackets, turn signals, grill, etc. but hey....

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bknblk2
Unfortunately 1/8 inch can be alot when talking about front end geometry, esp where it is. Your Other car being tweeked is not suprising.

Do it if you want. Could be a fun project. It will be 3,4,5 times the work of just putting a junk yard front half on it, the junk yard front half you are going to have to buy anyway to get the hood, fenders, fender liners, radiator braces, headlights, headlight brackets, turn signals, grill, etc. but hey....

I would have to get out there and re-measure, but I think the 1/8" difference on the undamaged car was between the front driver tire center to rear driver tire center and could of as easily been me moving the tape measure a fraction.

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bknblk2
Unfortunately 1/8 inch can be alot when talking about front end geometry, esp where it is. Your Other car being tweeked is not suprising.

Do it if you want. Could be a fun project. It will be 3,4,5 times the work of just putting a junk yard front half on it, the junk yard front half you are going to have to buy anyway to get the hood, fenders, fender liners, radiator braces, headlights, headlight brackets, turn signals, grill, etc. but hey....

As I said: the utter pointlessness is amazing... That should be self-evident to all.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

It is not utterly pointless John, anymore than 80% of the people building a rally car or building a plywood boat in the back yard or an airplane in the basement. It is hobby, passion, desire, creativity, genius ..any number of descriptives. What do you do for fun or a hobby, besides sitting in front of a monitor trying to impose your will on the world?

Would I do it? Prolly not, at least not from the firewall forward but from the struts forward it isn't that hard and some cars..say a Focus..have a pretty weak, poorly designed front end. A guy could build a better front with a staple gun and 1x2" furring strips. It is not necessary, not the wisest mod but certainly not as silly as organizing a rally...it is a Volvo , if he promises to drive it straight off an easy sweeper like he's Finnish would that be better?

As for whom to believe in rally legality...I'm pretty sure I carry the rank on that. However that isn't saying that Dave can convert the car and do the work in a suitable fashion to get a logbook. Allowed and being accepted aren't automatically givens.

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heymagic
It is not utterly pointless John, anymore than 80% of the people building a rally car or building a plywood boat in the back yard or an airplane in the basement. It is hobby, passion, desire, creativity, genius ..any number of descriptives. What do you do for fun or a hobby, besides sitting in front of a monitor trying to impose your will on the world?

Would I do it? Prolly not, at least not from the firewall forward but from the struts forward it isn't that hard and some cars..say a Focus..have a pretty weak, poorly designed front end. A guy could build a better front with a staple gun and 1x2" furring strips. It is not necessary, not the wisest mod but certainly not as silly as organizing a rally...it is a Volvo , if he promises to drive it straight off an easy sweeper like he's Finnish would that be better?

As for whom to believe in rally legality...I'm pretty sure I carry the rank on that. However that isn't saying that Dave can convert the car and do the work in a suitable fashion to get a logbook. Allowed and being accepted aren't automatically givens.

You hit it on the head. I'm not trying to do this to impress the guys and gals on TB, nor to re-invent the wheel. I wanna do it because I wanna, lol. And I had other custom things I wanted to do for the front anyways. Like custom headlights, re positioning the radiator a bit, etc, etc,. And as for the empty space between the struts and bumper I was planning on using the what is left of the hood since it is 20ga and I have enough flat pieces left to fill in those gaps.

And to re-iterate, I have no plans of becoming a WRC champion, or a rally champion of any kind. I just want to mash in my Volvo wagon and have some fun. I apologize if I got people riled up because I'm not taking this as cereal as the rest, but again this is just for fun, nothing else. Well maybe for the priceless expressions on peoples faces as a Volvo wagon barreling through the course .


Now Gene, any links you could provide me with that might help me make sure I stay within "legalities" when it comes to putting this all together.

I have already been here ( NASARallySportCageConstruction) and here ( argent.fiaArticle253), but couldn't find anything mentioned except this in the NASA site (3.3 Front core support reinforcement. Extension of the roll cage forward to the strut towers is allowed).



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 04/16/2013 10:37AM by CaliMeatwagon.

Quote
heymagic
It is not utterly pointless John, anymore than 80% of the people building a rally car or building a plywood boat in the back yard or an airplane in the basement. It is hobby, passion, desire, creativity, genius ..any number of descriptives. What do you do for fun or a hobby, besides sitting in front of a monitor trying to impose your will on the world?

Would I do it? Prolly not, at least not from the firewall forward but from the struts forward it isn't that hard and some cars..say a Focus..have a pretty weak, poorly designed front end. A guy could build a better front with a staple gun and 1x2" furring strips. It is not necessary, not the wisest mod but certainly not as silly as organizing a rally...it is a Volvo , if he promises to drive it straight off an easy sweeper like he's Finnish would that be better?

As for whom to believe in rally legality...I'm pretty sure I carry the rank on that. However that isn't saying that Dave can convert the car and do the work in a suitable fashion to get a logbook. Allowed and being accepted aren't automatically givens.

Youy can call it trying to impose your will on the world, I call it try to help people avoid wasting time and money when there is so much to do that you must do...
Or help them see that doing something for some service or longevity advantage..not pointless whims or sheer groundless obstinacy.
Big bad me..

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Quote
john vanlandingham
Big bad me..

Just in case you haven't been able to glean this from the wildly common posts on the subject...
It's generally not what you say, but how you say it that is what everyone has an issue with.

---

First Rally: 2001
Driver (7), Co-Driver (44)
Drivers (16)
Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Last Updated, January 4, 2015

Quote
john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

Quote
Morison

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john vanlandingham
Big bad me..

Just in case you haven't been able to glean this from the wildly common posts on the subject...
It's generally not what you say, but how you say it that is what everyone has an issue with.

Everyone?
Hardly.


However!
I've noticed that there is a subset of people unable to do many things themselves desperately want good advice, but they demand that the advice be written out in an idiom that uses the exact same idiomatic expressions that they are used to, of course with lots of positive reinforcement and compliments on how interesting their project is and thus by extension how interesting they are...
That characteristic is more frequent where an individuals conceptions of status are more important and where, it seems, they are farther from actually working on things themselves....

Interestingly there is a new pure Troll here who is a professor of some crap and whose feedback rating from students points out his demands and rigidity to learn and use his lingo as we see here:

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He loves his area of study but needs to understand that not everyone thinks the way that he does. Taking notes is difficult as he jumps up and down between definitions and concepts. He expects you to memorize his notes word for word for test.

And here:

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Tests consist of definitions you must memorize, multiple choice questions, and about 2 short answer questions.

And here

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No textbook required. You have to memorize all this notes and speak his lingo. His exams consists of definitions (you have to memorize them), multiple choice, and short answers.

Here

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Worst prof I have had at the U so far. He is very unhelpful and afraid to death about not meeting the "suggested" curve of grades set by the U. Impossible to get an A. Tests are hard and unless you memorize his complex notes. He is very boring and just goes on and on during lecture. Gets off topic a lot.

Here

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He is real passionate about the subject but tends to go way too in depth and over the classes head. His test are somewhat tricky but If you memorize his notes you should be fine. He likes to change things at the last minute.

Here

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Knows what he is talking about and is very passionate about the subject. Lectures are very boring and he just goes on about nothing for long periods of time. It is impossible to get an A because he is so afariad of getting in trouble for grade iinflation. All grades are weighted which sucks. Basically have to memorize his complicated notes for test

Damn it goes on, duddnit?

Quote

so hard to get an A. lectures are EXTREMELY dull and it is very hard to pay attention to him because he rants and rants. Tests are straightforwards only if you memorize the notes, which still sucks.

Sure those are selected but you see the common theme; This guy, in his world, he's good at it but structures his whole interaction dependent on students memorizing evidently verbatim his personal unique definitions of things...

He comes here and rants and rambles, and when asked for clarification of his data--that he assumed was something and was turned out to be something else--- he says "You have a reputation for being hard to deal with."

And subsequently has done nothing of value to anybody but snipe and troll.

Those that complain about good advice delivered in what they think doesn't stroke their manlinesses enough, doesn't pat them on their pointy lil haids, well not much I can do.
Because the problem is primarily like the schmuck above, inside their heads--reputation-facade-pretennse (like that guy who as far as I can glean, has never done a stage rally, just a little occasional grass-o-cross that anybody with $25 can do, no biggie, no baddee..OK But it seems he wants those around him to believe he's a "rally racer" as we see in this evaluation:

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Great freshman seminar. Thought provoking and well tought. **** is a rally racing Ned Flanders lookalike who gets the job done

As a great man once said "Very Interesting, Schmart"

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/16/2013 12:53PM by john vanlandingham.

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john vanlandingham

Quote
Morison
It's generally not what you say, but how you say it that is what everyone has an issue with.

Everyone?
Hardly.

I'd think that if you asked everyone around you for honest feedback, specifically if they've ever had an issue with the WAY you say things that the result would be near unanimous. (including wifey and kidlets)

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john vanlandingham
as we see here:

I can't believe you put that much time and effort (even it it wasn't much) into compiling that...

---

First Rally: 2001
Driver (7), Co-Driver (44)
Drivers (16)
Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Last Updated, January 4, 2015

Quote
john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

Quote
NoCoast
Legal for rally in USA since we pick and choose which parts of Fia safety rules we follow...

Caswell did some "unique" reinforcements on his Compact that he was frantically building with the hopes of doing WRC Mexico. I was really interested to see what the FIA inspectors would have said about his reinforcements.

It should not be legal in Rally America based on the way the rules are written I don't think. Then again, they let lots of things fly that wouldn't be accepted internationally while making some poor interpretations of others.

Hey Grant,

My experience at Rally Mexico is that the inspectors do not care about the cage design for the "Mexican" rally that is running along side the WRC event.

What they really cared about was weld quality and completeness. Basically they went over the cage with flash lights and dentist mirrors and if they found an undercut or gap they failed you. So my guess is that they would have passed him.

For the cars entered in the WRC event it was a little different. Each car had a binder of homologation papers and the inspectors where basically comparing every part to what was in the paperwork. So the question about is part X or cage X legal was decided before hand via written communication with the FIA.

There were no home built cars running the WRC event so not sure how those would be handled.

Andrew

Quote
Morison

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john vanlandingham

Quote
Morison
It's generally not what you say, but how you say it that is what everyone has an issue with.

Everyone?
Hardly.

I'd think that if you asked everyone around you for honest feedback, specifically if they've ever had an issue with the WAY you say things that the result would be near unanimous. (including wifey and kidlets)

Quote
john vanlandingham
as we see here:

I can't believe you put that much time and effort (even it it wasn't much) into compiling that...

I am always curious who and what people with irrational hate/anger/whatever do/are. And as I am home dying of some flu-disease, it was no effort, just some copy and paste..

I can't believe you, who has made it a sacred mission to parse word by word my posts in order to argue so frequently and lenthily over the most trivial bagatelles would not even comment on that, in a purely conversational, "iddnt that interesting?" kind of way of course.
I am curious because of the stark contrasting reception of the same words which I have seen in my whole life...

And of course, when you try to slyly change things, as you invariably do, to the phrase "if they EVER had an issue".....well of course that's a different thing.
Everybody must by virtue of being alive must have at some time "had somebody have an issue"....with somebody else..
Probably even you...nah that couldn't happen....

Indeed all of our wasted time is usually about the WAY, the way the words are used, which you write...
And of course you steadfastly maintain that all your words are always entirely without slanting/couched/bias/ whatever meaning, and the words are as pure as driven snow....

So no comments that a troll complaining about "how" I give advice is, in the real world, judged by people in actual contact, to be demanding of exact memorization of his specific words or they're sunk?

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Quote
john vanlandingham
I can't believe you, who has made it a sacred mission to parse word by word my posts in order to argue so frequently and lenthily over the most trivial bagatelles would not even comment on that, in a purely conversational, "iddnt that interesting?" kind of way of course.

Sure, it was interesting, but I don't have a clue who you're taking about. Who this new troll is.
To some degree, not knowing who, or what subject they are teaching, makes it difficult to fully appreciate the comments. Yes, higher learning should be about THINKING and not memorising... but in some instances that won't be the case. So, not really enough information has been shared for me to get very interested.

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john vanlandingham
Everybody must by virtue of being alive must have at some time "had somebody have an issue"....with somebody else..
Probably even you...nah that couldn't happen...

I'd be shocked if it hadn't happened.

Quote
john vanlandingham
And of course you steadfastly maintain that all your words are always entirely without slanting/couched/bias/ whatever meaning, and the words are as pure as driven snow....

Please show me where I've said that. Having worked as a journalist I know how much effort it is to present 'unbiased' and 'balanced' information... In the end, bias is next to impossible to get rid of, partiuclarly in an overview perspective, and the best we can do is recognize it and factor it in... but Shirley you knew that.

---

First Rally: 2001
Driver (7), Co-Driver (44)
Drivers (16)
Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Last Updated, January 4, 2015

Quote
john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.