OK John, I'll take your advice... how bout one of these?

Just add gas I'm getting excited and its not for me

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DaveK
Why? Put the Murkweird back together and run Big White with some studs.

Other than the race all weekend & put away wet aspect of the Open Light car, I don't see the appeal over RWD (which you already own). Weren't you the one touting how little work you did on your car between events? Nothing says fun like being sideways everywhere even at stock power levels (which you had). Besides, wasn't Scott talking about how he wished he'd built a 2wd car instead due partly to the number of competitors in class? MaxAttack!

Why?
a) New job I'm likely taking. One year contract. 1/3 of current pay.
b) Cam - $750, bottom end - $1000, wiring fixes - $? but lots of time, and on and on.

There are two secondary things also occurring.
1 - I've always wanted the highest spec rally car I could afford to build. The Merkur is almost on the same route the Evo was. I will finish it and it will be awesome.
2 - We NEED more events in Colorado. We need five+ 20-40 miles stage events. For that we need competitors. The best way to build a large and solid group of competitors is to spoon feed them. If we can change the perception locally that rallying is a super expensive sport only available to people like Block and Pastrana and get the thousands of Subaru fanatics to start considering building rally cars, we could build that competitor base. If the cost to build the car, start to finish was under $10k and much of it was done for you, the generation of bolt on mods enthusiasts might consider coming to rally. I see Open Light as the answer to that. Drop off your GC and a $7k check. That gets you seats, cage, belts, skid plates, brake pads, fire bottles, and suspension. To generate interest we have three shop cars (Scott's, Mark's and mine) that are also used for a regularly held rally school at CORE (remember me talking to you building a curriculum?) The people get to get in the cars and actually see how fun an Open Light car can be. Sure it's not as fun as a turbo AWD or RWD but it's easy and cheap. If they are mechanical, they can simply buy the bent cage kit. Make a region specific rule set that does not allow >2.5L displacement, >4.11 final drive, 6 speeds, or non-stock differentials to keep the costs down and competition close.
So, that in essence is the business plan I am working with. Maybe it could grow to the point where you, Allison, Scott, Mark, and I are all working full time operating the business that puts on the events, runs the driving school, and builds the cars. Maybe it becomes a part time gig that supplements all our incomes and allows us to play with rally car stuff and get paid. But most importantly, it gives an easy path to rallying to all the people out there that maybe want to rally but don't really want to spend the sweat equity to actually build a rally car.
But first, I HAVE to finish my thesis and finish my degree. Once that is done with my degree level and work experience I will have no problems getting six figure salaries and I can go do whatever I want with the Merkur and spend time and effort trying to build the local community and execute my master plan. Easiest way to start that in my opinion is to spend a few hundred on some steel and get the Impreza cage kit started. For Big White, that and a set of non-blown stock struts and I can go rally. Tyler Patik wants us to cage his car. Flat Four guys want a cage kit. So, what I'm saying is, caging the Impreza will pay for itself and is easy compared to the amount of work and time needed with no potential return in community growth or financial return that comes from working on the Merkur.

Holy essay batman! I thought you had most of the bits for the Merkur assembled and were just waiting for the time to tackle it. Didn't realize you were missing some fairly large items.

I'm with you on trying to come up with ideas for trying to grow the local community, but I personally don't see the GC being the car to do it. At 5000+ ft elevations, a car that makes less than 70hp to all 4'ish wheels isn't going to be quite as much fun as other cost effective options. Why not try to foster interest in an inexpensive RWD platform since you're thinking of building quite a few of them?

My contribution for this year (and the last few) has been giving as many people at CORE ride alongs in the BMW/Evo whenever I'm out there. I've talked up CHCA & stage rally. Lots seem to have this perception that its some big deal to step up and I think that's the perception that we need to help change (more involvement with rally cars at rally-x?). I'm hopeful now that a couple of them have made the jump this season that more may do so next year.

The bigger problem when people step up is going to be how to talk them out of "but I've already paid off my STi so I want to put a cage in that" mentality.

Dave

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DaveK
Holy essay batman!

A car that makes less than 70hp to all 4'ish wheels isn't going to be quite as much fun as other cost effective options. Why not try to foster interest in an inexpensive RWD platform since you're thinking of building quite a few of them?

Yeah. I've been avoiding that post for months too!

I have had plenty of fun at CORE in Open Light cars.
Can you think of any decent inexpensive platform that has a large community of fans that are already rally fans, requires little to no fabrication ability, has a large quantity of quality aftermarket rally parts, can be found in the $1000 range all the time in Colorado, and will be able to generate series support in the form of sponsorships?
I can't think of anything. Volvo is almost there, but how often do you hear just on here that people won't rally a Volvo because of looks. There's also alot more that needs to be done to a Volvo to be stage ready.

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DaveK
Holy essay batman! I thought you had most of the bits for the Merkur assembled and were just waiting for the time to tackle it. Didn't realize you were missing some fairly large items.

I'm with you on trying to come up with ideas for trying to grow the local community, but I personally don't see the GC being the car to do it. At 5000+ ft elevations, a car that makes less than 70hp to all 4'ish wheels isn't going to be quite as much fun as other cost effective options. Why not try to foster interest in an inexpensive RWD platform since you're thinking of building quite a few of them?

My contribution for this year (and the last few) has been giving as many people at CORE ride alongs in the BMW/Evo whenever I'm out there. I've talked up CHCA & stage rally. Lots seem to have this perception that its some big deal to step up and I think that's the perception that we need to help change (more involvement with rally cars at rally-x?). I'm hopeful now that a couple of them have made the jump this season that more may do so next year.

The bigger problem when people step up is going to be how to talk them out of "but I've already paid off my STi so I want to put a cage in that" mentality.

Dave

Dave, just go bitch slap Grant for a few minutes...

I don't want to rag on Sub-a-rats cause they GO reasonable well.

But we all know that with any Subie that is driven with decent vigor (and with a typical junk yard or unknown quality box---the sort that works pretty OK for your car) is dancing on the knife's edge and PROBABLY will have some failure that will cost LOTS and LOTS, maybe up to 10 times as much as a basically unbreakable box for either of the 2 nice RWD cars a smart person could run.

With that KNOWN major problem staring a person square in the face, I personally cannot recommend a person run out and buy a Subie. Same as no matter how well they work when they work, and how much I might like Golves--which I do---- I cannot with good conscience recommend a person seek out and buy a Golf since we know and have seen repeatedly over 2 decades ENDLESS driveshft/CV/stubshaft failures which we know must be heartbreaking for guys whenever they break---first or second stage or within 5 miles from the end....

Doesn't it seem to make more sense to DEMONSTRATE with Grant's or Sean's or Al's car the HOW and WHY a newb should build a simpler and sturdier RWD car so that they can spend reasonable money to build a solid reliable car---especially for those who don't make 6 figure incomes?

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

John- just an uneducated newbie opinion mind you. But merkurs are too far and few between to build a viable business on. Volvo's might fly but they really don't have the fanbase, are not quite a rallycar in a box and require too much fab work, and junkyard hunting for your average person, they are ugly, and most examples are starting to require more rust repair than they are worth. Any idiot can figure out how to swap a broken trans. But tell them they are gonna need to buy a welder, saws, and other not so basic car equipment, on top of learning how to use them just to get a decent trans in the car> gets overwhelming quickly.

On top of which finding a good example of either of the two cars listed above would too often require trailering a car home. A car Hauler is not something you find in your average neighborhood. It's easy to justify a trailer when you have the car and are on the way to ane vent. tough to justify it for a maybe gonna buy it 2 hours away.

Subarus can be had for under 1k a couple blocks away, driven home, driven to the shop for rally kit treatment. Failures no longer become expensive when the junkyard is overfull with subies, and spare complete cars can be had for again under 1k and used as a daily till called upon.

As a privateer with a good sized garage and all the necessary tools at hand a volvo or merkur is a great idea (wish I'da done a merkur) But I dont think you could ever sell me on the idea of building a business based on a dying breed.

EDIT: also remember he is after new blood, younger people who don't have a lifetime of tools and knowledge- the people that do are already involved in racing in some form or another and usually have other motives and financial reasoning behind their car choices. (why the audi? cause I have a ton of them)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/19/2011 12:02AM by aj_johnson.

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NoCoast
Can you think of any decent inexpensive platform that has a large community of fans that are already rally fans, requires little to no fabrication ability, has a large quantity of quality aftermarket rally parts, can be found in the $1000 range all the time in Colorado, and will be able to generate series support in the form of sponsorships?
I can't think of anything.

Me neither, which is why an aging make/model spec series may not be the answer. I'll say point blank that I had no idea anybody rallied recent BMWs until I convinced myself that I couldn't afford to run a season of rally in the Evo. I turned to youtube watched some Group F stuff and eventually stumbled across the Compact Cup stuff in Europe. I liked the idea of a newer looking body style and RWD and it (or is that myself) seemed dumb enough to try.

Quote
NoCoast
Volvo is almost there, but how often do you hear just on here that people won't rally a Volvo because of looks. There's also alot more that needs to be done to a Volvo to be stage ready.

Volvo - You can count me in that group that thinks they're hideous, but after a ride in one I'm sure I could change my mind. Besides, you can't see how ugly the outside is from the driver's seat...can you?

Merkur - I'll make my decision about those once we can do a back to back comparison at CORE. Its been too long since I've ridden in your car to really remember how it compares to the BMW. Downside is that they're becoming somewhat rare.

Nissan 240 - has lots of aftermarket support and those guys like going sideways, but that likely means starter cars are more expensive. No idea on what they'd need to be rally tanks.

BMW - there's a legion of jalopnik peeps that think rallying $500 bmw beaters is a good idea. Might be time to buy up the cheap cars, they could be a gold mine after that movie comes out. :/

Dave

A car that I can source, build, and sell with a decent profit margin for $10k that the customer can go rally the next day. The only thing that comes to mind is an Impreza. The non-Compact E36 BMW's are attractive. There's 3-5 five speed ones in the 1000-1500 range in Denver for sale right now.
John. Subaru gearboxes are fine at non-turbo power levels. Sure people Like Matthew went through a gearbox a day in PGT WRXs but that was also pushing them to limits well above 95% of people driving Subaru rally cars. For Open Light, they are fine.
See Specialstage for VW CV info. Wimpey's seem to have very few problems. They've broken one at a rally in how many years? I am not a VW fan nor would I recommend one to someone unless they really enjoy working on VW's because they always seem to have something needing fixed.
Yeah, I'd rather see a bunch of RWD cars. But, and this is the really really really don't miss this point important part, 20-30 year old guys that work full time don't really want to spend 150-200 hours of their own time prepping a car and trying to learn how to make it reliable for rallying. They want to work, play, and chase skirts. Someone with a 40k salary can afford to buy a $10k prepped rally car and compete in 4-5 events per year at $250 entry fees.
Did I also mention that an Open Light Impreza is also Chump Car legal.

See Special Stage for CV info..
WTF is that?
Link?
Maybe you can share with class, Grant (fuck me Grant so there's some latest trick which is alleged to cure this problem that just hit the Mosers at Mendocino..and dozens and dozen of others and you say "See SS for CV info".....Great)

The old 10-15 year old Subie trannie "fine"? at n.a. level?
I knew some canajian who was doing a PGT car and they seemed to last for him approx 150 miles...lessee Rat Prichard or sumpin. He had a "life" before swapping of approx 100 miles, so Dave Clark got pretty good at swapping them in....
And you say they're "fine'.

OK?
Everythings fine...

The 20-30 year old guys who don't WANT TO (who the fuck wants to? the differeence some people ACCEPT THE COMPROMISE that if they are going to get sideways they are going to HAVE TO work some...)

Well Grant catering to a field of Timmay's doesn't seem a viable business plan and that's essentially what you have in mind: flake, flight immature boys who WANT everything and have neither the disciple of dedication OR the funds to be a trustafarian...


Maybe they shouldn't be rallyistas.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Quote
john vanlandingham
The 20-30 year old guys who don't WANT TO (who the fuck wants to? the differeence some people ACCEPT THE COMPROMISE that if they are going to get sideways they are going to HAVE TO work some...)

Well Grant catering to a field of Timmay's doesn't seem a viable business plan and that's essentially what you have in mind: flake, flight immature boys who WANT everything and have neither the disciple of dedication OR the funds to be a trustafarian...

Maybe they shouldn't be rallyistas.

Maybe, no definitely, that is the exact mentality that is killing rally in the USA. You have to recognize the market and adapt to that market or die.

Pat Richard also was able to destroy WRC boxes and lost any hope of a WRC ride based upon that as I heard. Probably not the best comparison.

Here's your link.
http://www.specialstage.com/forums/showthread.php?44343-Mk-II-Golf-Axles
Ironically VW enthusiasts are exactly the type of person you say we should be encouraging to come rallying since they seem to actually work on and enjoy working on their cars, but they also have the strongest brand commitment.

Here's another really important thread from specialstage.
http://www.specialstage.com/forums/showthread.php?44347-Ojibwe-Forests-Weekend-canceled

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NoCoast
The only thing that comes to mind is an Impreza. The non-Compact E36 BMW's are attractive. There's 3-5 five speed ones in the 1000-1500 range in Denver for sale right now.

Is that 3-5 E36 BMWs or Imprezas? If BMW, I think the 325 or 328 would make a great starter car and eliminate the need for a motor swap. The only downside (upside?) is the multi-link rear end of the standard E36. Its faster, but likely more damage prone than the rear beam setup of the Compact.

Biggest weak point of the cars so far seems to be that you need to pull the oil pan and tack weld on the oil pump nut. E36s also need some strategic chassis reinforcement around the suspension pickup points, but pre-cut kits are available for ~$100 to do the 3-4 problem areas.

Dave

Quote
john vanlandingham
See Special Stage for CV info..
WTF is that?
Link?
Maybe you can share with class, Grant (fuck me Grant so there's some latest trick which is alleged to cure this problem that just hit the Mosers at Mendocino..and dozens and dozen of others and you say "See SS for CV info".....Great)

Well, you're the one that was claiming that they fail all over the place... while I'll be the first to admit to have had my share of problems on that account, the fix (it seems - knock on wood) is not too hard... go VR6. It's a matter of a new hub and new joint pr. side - and obviously a new bearing to change.
It's not THAT bad, that the car should be forever condemned .

Quote

The old 10-15 year old Subie trannie "fine"? at n.a. level?
I knew some canajian who was doing a PGT car and they seemed to last for him approx 150 miles...lessee Rat Prichard or sumpin. He had a "life" before swapping of approx 100 miles, so Dave Clark got pretty good at swapping them in....
And you say they're "fine'.

Anybody can break anything - I know of a guy that smoked 200 cigarettes a day and lived to be over 100 before falling off a roof (or something). Doesn't lead me to believe that smoking is not dangerous. There are all sorts of histories of exceptions to the rules - I don't give them too much thought.
Now, I don't know the first thing about Subie gearboxes in the wild, but for me personally I would take a little more than an example of a crazy Canadian to convince me that they are made of glass.

Quote

The 20-30 year old guys who don't WANT TO (who the fuck wants to? the differeence some people ACCEPT THE COMPROMISE that if they are going to get sideways they are going to HAVE TO work some...)

Well Grant catering to a field of Timmay's doesn't seem a viable business plan and that's essentially what you have in mind: flake, flight immature boys who WANT everything and have neither the disciple of dedication OR the funds to be a trustafarian...

Maybe they shouldn't be rallyistas.

Oh man - now you're just an old geezer talking out of your ass.
While I agree that it IS a compromise you have to accept (I have learned that myself over 10 years of rallying), YOU - JVL - also have to accept that youth is and will be wasted on the young... but it doesn't get you anywhere bickering about it.
If you just turn them away at the door step, you'll never get any new blood.
All play, no work is more of a norm nowadays - it's not like it used to, and most likely never will. If rallyistas doesn't adapt to that and accept it to let the n00bs in, the n00bs will never "see the light".
It took me several years to accept that if I REALLY wanted to be just the slightest bit competitive, I had to work extra to earn money to buy the parts that was needed, and then work some more in the garage with prepping the car. I learned it eventually - but not by some old geezer constantly scolding me about doing it the wrong way - but by gently being nudged. It all came in its own time...

---

Brgrds
Brian

E36 cars. And I just searched for ones under $2000.

I should also note that this is not what I recommend to someone living anywhere else. I think 2WD and more specifically RWD is where it's at! I'm talking about a way to basically build a new program from scratch to bring in new competitors that maybe have no aspirations for a national campaign or even aspirations to do anything beyond the local series.
On a side note, I was behind the Rallyimprezive Subaru Impreza Chump car not ten minutes ago. I think they just upgraded to a 2.2 bottom end after running the last 24 hour event on the 1.8 and getting something like 2nd or 3rd.

Who started this thread again? What is it even about? Oh yeah, how someone needs to go buy William's Merkurs and stop overcomplicating life.

http://denver.craigslist.org/cto/2551613125.html
http://denver.craigslist.org/cto/2552684172.html
http://denver.craigslist.org/cto/2511049487.html
http://denver.craigslist.org/cto/2527329748.html

There was also quite a few 318's but figured I'd just post the 325 models.

Quote
NoCoast
http://denver.craigslist.org/cto/2551613125.html
http://denver.craigslist.org/cto/2552684172.html
http://denver.craigslist.org/cto/2511049487.html
http://denver.craigslist.org/cto/2527329748.html

There was also quite a few 318's but figured I'd just post the 325 models.

When do we start?